We Need The Church

In this episode of The Extremely Rational Podcast (“The E.R.”), Alden and Pastor Anthony have an honest conversation about the pain, disappointment, and wounds that can come from people within the church. They explore why human failure should never be confused with God's character and discuss the importance of remaining connected to a healthy local church. If you've ever struggled with “church hurt” or questioned your place in the church, this conversation offers biblical perspective, encouragement, and hope.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Extremely Rational Podcast. I'm Alden Brown. This is whoa, Pastor Anthony, Beanie, Plow Tony, Knucklehead, Moron. Thank you. Beautiful. We are the Extremely Rational Podcast. Why? Because Pastor Anthony's a pretty extreme guy. I'm a pretty rational guy. Not always, but that's typically the situation between us. We call it the ER for short. We want to be an ER for you. So if you need anything, if you need to laugh, if you need to hear some biblical advice, if you need prayer, you need whatever, tune in, listen to us, and just enjoy. And hopefully we can be an ER for you. Amen. God loves you. We start every episode with the um open mic segment. Ephmoron segment. Which is a segment where we get to share anything that we feel strongly about. Any old random thing we feel strongly about, and it's basically become my segment.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Um I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

So here's my next moron thing. Um, and uh this is something that's pretty well known about me that I want to clear the air on a little bit if possible. I feel like I do a decent job of being clear, but I think it's important. I am kind of known for being an anti-dog guy. Um, which I think unfortunately takes on a life of its own or or could that like Alden hates dogs or Alden hates animals. Not true at all, not even close to true. Um I do not enjoy owning them. I do not enjoy being a pet owner in general. It's a responsibility. Yes. And so I want to just clarify some of those points and and and why. And the first point that I always make, if you're gonna weigh pros and cons, the biggest con for me is what most people list as their best pro. And that is that you will fall in love with this animal.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

That to me is such a problem. Um, and I I think again, when I say these things, people go, Oh my god, you better not have kids. And that is that is like honestly, when people say that, I think that person might want to be locked in a psych ward. Like you need medication. If you're going to compare a human being made from my, you know, like fruits of my love, an actual person with my DNA to a dog you went and bought, that's what you're comparing.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

The producer is really enjoying the cell.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

I'm just saying, you got real problems if you're comparing a child and equation from the love of you and your wife to a dog. Just think of a comparison you're making. It's nonsense. But what, but all right, that's one. My thing is, i if when you when you go and purchase a dog, we're talking about pouring endless endless thousands of dollars. That is thousands into the life of this thing. Even bird quick.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Last two years of my dog, ten thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

That's just in the last two years. You had to buy the dog, you had to feed the dog, you had to all the vets, all the appointments.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

The last two years, ten thousand dollars. It's unclear. And incredible care because of her age.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah. So I don't want any part about any of that. I also think what what I'm saying is that the the falling in love with it gives me zero peace. So what people say is like, oh, but I love them so much and I have so much fun, and we have this camaraderie, and they and they love unconditionally. And it's like, yeah, all that's true. That's amazing. That's great. The problem with that is, and I witness it with every one of you, so don't give me your crap, is that you are constantly worried about your dog. Everywhere you are, I have to hear somebody. Marilyn, you got that? I gotta get home because I haven't fed so-and-so. I can't go away. I can't go away because I have to be correct. It's like this is such an illogical decision to go and purchase a feline and bring it into your home. It's it, I mean, the the amount of cons just stack up the hair. Oh, I got one that doesn't shed. Great. Okay, so the dirt that it tracks in, the needing to go out, the needing to train it, the I mean the food, the the pricing, the the the just the all the cost, the vaccines, the the healthcare, it just melts. The cons are so extreme. I think of maybe two pros. Maybe. If you got the right breed, it may provide you some level of security or safety in that it would deter an intruder. Correct. And maybe two is that it provides some warmth and love and company camaraderie if you're lonely. Companionship. Absolutely. So I can see those two things. I think if you're a lonely person, and but to not admit to to be so this is like with the NBA fans that won't admit anything real. To not at least admit that this is going to be a huge weigh on your conscience, it's gonna be a huge weigh on your wallet, um, is just not fair or reasonable to me. That's all I'm saying. So I'm saying I love a dog. I think dogs are the thousand percent. Especially puppies, the cutest thing in the whole world. Uh, I just don't want any I don't want any part of owning it.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

We have a neighbor, her name's Patty. Shout out to you, Patty. I don't know if you're next time I see you walking your animals, but she has three dogs, I think three cats, and she said, My paycheck literally goes to only them. That's it. I sustain their life. And if I had to give my kidneys, I would. Well, you're fing crazy, Patty. My dog's not getting my kidney. Yeah. And so, but that's some of these pet owners have understood these have become my life. Yeah, and I think there's I think like you, I think it's a poor choice with your life.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

I think it's a really poor choice.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Do whatever you wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I also think it's Patty loves her animal. I think it's a high level of concern. It brings me to a high level of concern when you seem to actually love them more than humans. That's that's really wild to me. Like, that's really concerned. And then you're calling me like, oh, but you don't you can't love a pet. No, I would love the pet. That's part of the problem. I don't want you to invest my love.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

And this may segue us into where we want to go. Okay. But they usually do have unconditional love where humans don't.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Oh, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

And so humans hurt you so much more than they ever will because they weren't made that way. One time we could talk about that. I could show you in Job that God said, I didn't make animals that way. They don't have the emotions you have. So, yes, but I still think that's unhealthy. Yeah. If if if the greatest camaraderie relationship you have on the earth is an animal, I think it's unhealthy. I think um part of being human is being hurt and the emotions of it. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

I agree. And I think in the intensity uh that I speak about this with, I definitely want to soften that by saying, I do also think there is this wildly beautiful connection that is from the Lord Himself that we have between animals, humans and animals. It is awesome, but I don't want to invite that into my life if I have the option, because it is going to weigh on me every moment. Correct. I'm going to feel like I need to make sure they're okay and take care of them. And it's just going to be so much more stress-induced and the money it costs and all that than it is going to be rewarded.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Everything else in this world, everything you said, but my wife and I's final decision is the cost is just it's just too much. $10,000 the last two years, and we love Scarlet. Yeah. Oh my God. But so what would it be another 15 years? Oh my goodness. It's, you know, I I can tell you that we got married in 1980. Our mortgage was $490. So if you do that, that's about $10,000. Maybe it's $12,000 over two years. Well, my dog cost me that. Yeah. That wasn't food. That was that was two operations. And so it is getting, in my opinion, too exceedingly um financially. And like I said, Patty said, all my paycheck goes to my animals.

unknown 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

So I well, I guess. To end this, I'm just simply saying, please, if you if you know Alden, if you know me, please don't be like, oh, Alden hates dogs. I don't. I do not hate that that animal at all. I do have a problem with the fact that you were irresponsible enough to go and purchase one. I think it's a silly life decision. I don't stand for it.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Amen. So turn to John 3 18 or 19, please. We're going to open our segue up to what we're going to call it, and I don't want Alden to yell at me. Uh maybe the pain that can come with serving God in his house. But we want to hopefully help you with that because you know, and and and I have a testimony about it that I'm not nothing in my life is a secret. So John 3?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah, six uh eighteen, please. Okay, eighteen says, Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Or judged already. I just I have to say that because he's gonna teach us what the judgment is.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Because he has not believed in the name of the Son of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment. The light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

People suck. Yeah, God is good. That's what we want to talk about. Yeah. We don't want to tell you we don't have empathy, we don't want to tell you we don't have compassion. We don't want to, but we do want to tell you that I believe, and maybe you could do it better than me, but our pastor, we have um what we call uh beginner brunches. Yep. And probably uh well, we're gonna say four to five a year. But he makes three promises. Yeah. And they're all about that you're gonna get hurt here if you can remember them better than me.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Well, he promises one that at some point, somewhere along the line, something or someone will offend you. That will have you whether it's the color of the walls that we decided to paint them or our usage of a haze machine.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

So if you think you're walking into church into a perfect place, you're wrong. Correct. And it's uh now I believe, and we're working on it at Eastgate, it should be a healthy place, it should be a safe place, but perfect place, there are no perfect places. And as soon as you walk in, Alden, or I walk in, or anybody walks in, the perfection is gone.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

No, I agree. And I I think I heard somebody say it recently, and I kind of wanted to dissect the statement a little bit because to some degree I really like it and believe in it, but then I think there's room for um the other side. Yeah. So basically what he said is that church hurt doesn't exist. It's a poor term to say church hurt. Oh, yeah, you know, I've had a lot of church hurt in my life. It's like, well, do you mean that somebody hurt you that goes to a church or is a pastor because they're a human and they're flawed? Yeah. Then it's not it's not church hurt, somebody hurt you. Yeah. I mean that we all deal with people who hurt us, and especially in the church. So to that level, I agree with what this person was saying, but I do think there's room to possibly uh admit that the church as a construct could hurt people if operated poorly in error or outside.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

So I'm gonna give a couple little testimonies about that and then I'm gonna let you elaborate. Okay. So this is my own story. Born again in 82. Yeah, we became a 501c3 church in 83, had a little career church uh from 83 to 88, bought this gorgeous building we have now, yeah, and we're in it to 2004, and uh the founding father uh fell asleep and never woke up. Within a week, my wife and I were lead pastors, 700 board vote. And so obviously it was very heavy, it was traumatic, it was, you know, I could elaborate. But a couple of major things I want to get from this. Number one, when I honestly and fairly looked back, as now I'm the leader of this church, let me look back at our history and and see how we did. I had to come to the conclusion that from eighty three to two thousand four, which is twenty-one years, we hurt way more people than we helped. Whoa. This is this is lead pastor now in second in charge for those two decades. Then I went off to a um the largest at that time ministers' meeting on Long Island, and the minister leading it made an incredible statement to me. He said, the church is a broken system, and we're gonna hand that to our children. So to walk with our heads in the sand like these things aren't real, they are really real. But let's never blame God. Never, never blame the church. The church should blame the people of the church, or the person I said this to you, or the person. Um Frank Turrek, uh, great, great man of God, apologist, goes to colleges. And when the people would say, I don't go to church because everybody sucks there or this, there, or that, there, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I can't serve God because Christians are hypocrites. He said, if you like Led Zeppelin or the Beatles or Beethoven, pick anyone you want. But if there was a cover band for any one of these three musicians and they sucked, would you blame the musician?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah, no way.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Why are you blaming God?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

We just read that he came to the earth. Right. And people said, No, thanks. We'd rather have darkness than you. We suck, we're evil.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, no, that's a great analogy. You would say that that those people right there trying to represent that great song suck at it. But the song is awesome. We all know the song is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

And you know what? I I can say this as I have no problem. I've checked the history. So that the church has hurt way more people than it's helped. Let's heal the church. Let's not get rid of it. Right, exactly. You know, the people, oh, the church is ended. Okay. So Jesus said, I'll build what? My church. So I didn't see him any time not having a church in the gates of Elm and Upper Bear. Then he has a day of Pentecost, and 120 people get filled with the Spirit, and when they get filled with the Spirit, they go out and do what? They build churches. And all the letters in the Bible were written to either churches or leaders of churches. And then the seven letters that Jesus wrote in Revelation, he wrote to all churches. No, the church is an institution that God wants. Let's talk about how do we make it a safer place and a healthier place.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

And I think the evidence is quite clear at how important being plugged in and faithful to a local church body is for your life, for your family, for your health. It is so clearly evident that it makes a huge difference. So if you think, oh, I was hurt by the church, I have church hurt. Again, whatever that means, you mean somebody at a church hurt you? Okay, then you can't. Can I just say this?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

If you get hurt on your job, you walk off your job, you quit your job. I've worked I've work hurt. Okay. My boss. I have house hurt. I'm gonna go live in the street. It's an amazing thing. But it's kind of if they saw our last episode, I believe it's demonic influence. I'm not condoning it. I was part of it, hurting people, but it's demonic influence saying that don't go to church anymore. You would never say, I'm not going to work. Right. You know, even when people talk about tithing, you know, in a church or supporting it. And and and and and people are challenged by it. Has the devil ever, I'm talking to all you church people, when you feel, well, I go to pay my tithe, and I just I struggle. Have you ever struggled paying your rent? You just pay it. Why do you struggle paying God? What you owe him? I'm telling you, it's demonic influence that comes against that.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, I agree. If uh and if it isn't, then it is an extraordinary. And I'm gonna narrow-sided things.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Send this to you. Your generation, and especially you, Alden, have opened my eyes to um what is it, intelligent emotional intelligence? It it is the key to a healthy church. Do whatever you gotta do. It is it is you guys have changed the culture of churches through emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

I think in general, uh probably in all walks of life, it matters a whole lot less what you say. And a lot matters a whole lot more how you say it. Um I forget who this was, but someone famously quoted that people will forget what you did and people will forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel. And so the point in that is that we're trying to do our best to be so much better um in communicating. And look, let's be careful. You know, we can't be like, oh, we have to make everyone feel like it's a good thing. Yeah, we're not compromising truth. We never would compromise truth.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Bringing it more healthy.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah, which yes, we want to deliver it in a way that it's uh going to be digested and it's gonna be received. And um we're we're doing our best uh for sure. But it does matter in all walks of life, whether that be at your job or be on a sports team you're on or be in church, it matters how you uh present anything and everything. Because you could say things uh I could say the same thing to you two different ways with the exact same words, and you get two different messages from me.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Amen. And you we could say it to ten people, and ten people might receive it, and that's why I know we've talked about this, but a big part of your course everybody in the church is important. Yeah, and so everybody should know their weaknesses and their strengths, and more than anything, you should read this book and learn how God wired you and help you to understand and and you do this again. I still have to come to you what yellow and blue and green. I know red, I'm a bright red. Yeah. Uh but how when I'm delivering to them will be the best way for the way they were wired for them to receive what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

How healthy that is.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Sure, and but difficult.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Oh, but it's so it's key. Yeah, it is we we came, you put a suit on, this is the way we do it, you don't like it, there's the door. Uh, Pastor Stephen literally changed all that without compromising, and and literally said, Muslims, you're all welcome. What? But why not? We're not compromising the word. We're making this place comfortable for any and every human being who wants to walk in. You're gonna at least feel loved and comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Comfortable to the degree that we're kind. Yes, but yes, that's what I mean. Yeah, not our message. Correct, exactly. I don't want that to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

No, no, no, but we didn't make you. If you had a beard, if you had a piercing, and we would make sure that you understood that you're not like us. I I tell a story of the founding father went to one of the denominations, that's all I'll say. Their conferences, and he said, I am telling you my hand to God. I walked in, they all had the same glasses on, they all had the same suit on, they all had the same haircut. That's what we used to send out to everybody. If you don't look like us, don't come in our building. That's not good.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

No, that's ugly. We don't want to be anything like that at all.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

And that's hurtful. Yeah, it is. Because I don't look like you. And the weaker we used to discard. Where the Bible says, you know what God says I do with the weaker? I show them more. So what? So there'll be no divisions among you. That's 1 Corinthians 12. When the when the gifts of the Spirit are sent out, they should be sent out in a way that we're all one. And so my wife and I, before we got saved, literally went to a church, visited it. They had what we call afterwards when you serve food, um, fellowship, whatever. And do you know that all the people of the church ate first? And when we were last on when it came to there was no food left. Yeah, Pastor Stephen said, No, no, no, reverse it. That's exactly right. It's it's showing everybody we can't give you a message that you want to hear if you want don't want to hear Jesus, but we can give you love and show you we care about you.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah, and I want to clarify also that what we're talking about is not belong before you believe. Um I think a lot of churches, and I I would put this more in the seeker-sensitive movement that I think is a fail um for so many reasons, but um, there's a lot of churches that subscribe to this idea that hey, we want you to belong before you believe. So we welcome you in so you both feel like you belong here before you even believe in Christ. That's not what we're saying because the truth is you you don't belong unless you believe. That's right. And they don't want the Holy Spirit, they'll tell you that. But what we're saying is that we we are you're welcome to come in. Absolutely. We'll be very nice to you, we'll be very loving like Jesus to you, and you're welcome to come in. But you're gonna hear truth.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And if you choose to believe in Christ, you will belong. However, this is not a belong before you believe situation. That's not what we're saying.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Amen. We're we're we're all under God, we're under His, but we're Again, uh you kind of were too young to see really how dysfunctional it was. I was part of the dysfunction. So I'm seeing it from another angle where, oh my God, we just didn't oh, we didn't make anyone feel comfortable. Just walking through the doors. We couldn't even love them. You didn't look like you don't believe I you don't speak in tongues. Those are the things. Yeah, not good. And I and I think that um more and more as we go on with these podcasts. Yes, we can. But what we want people to know is that God loves you. Yep. Uh he found a woman, I believe, naked who just had sex and she wasn't married. He loved her. Everyone that he found, he said, I did not come for the righteous. I came for sick people. Uh uh I heard there are still people who hate jelly roll. I just I don't get it. He literally looked up at an award and said, Jesus, I hear you. Whoops. I hear you, Lord. You're for everyone. You're not a Democrat, you're not a Republican, you don't have a record label. You love everyone. People have a problem with that. He loved everyone. Yeah. Show me. Even the people he rebuked, Pharisee. He loved them. He tried to gather them in. It says, Do you know how many hundreds of years I tried to gather you in it? But you wouldn't, you rejected me. I didn't reject you. Right. God doesn't reject anyone. God loves everyone. Yeah. And that is the message. Yeah. We don't compromise that message. But we don't say, if you don't want to do that, that you're part of us. No, you're not. You don't want to be part of us. Right. You don't want to be part of his family, and that's okay. We love you. But you can't say you're part if you reject him. Yeah. Amen. You just can't. It's it's really it's really a simple principle. And so whoever you are out there, I will tell you, pray to the Holy Spirit to lead you to a church. But I will tell you, I'll say this, that I don't believe you can mature without a church. I believe it's uh Ephesians 4. When people say, Well, how are you equipped? The Holy Spirit. The Bible does not say that. He leads you and guides you to truth. You are equipped, it says, to the fivefold miss apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, prophets. That's how God equips you. Yep. With human beings filled with Him in a church, that's how you grow. That's how we become healthy. To do it isolated on your own in any arena is unhealthy.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Amen. And so for anybody listening or watching, if you have been hurt in church by someone, by something, um get back in. Get plugged in. Never blame the Lord, ever, ever, ever. It is absolutely not him. It is uh someone. Uh because when man gets involved, we really screw it up. Um so I feel for you. We love you. Uh we want you to know that Jesus is perfect. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

And we have we want you to know at Eastgate, we have come to this conclusion. Everybody comes into the building effed up, including me. So we have to first be healed. We cannot build something where everybody's bleeding. Right. So we must be healed. Then we must be discipled. Yeah. And then we're ready to change the world. Our goal is healing and discipling and becoming one. No fights, no nothing. And so wherever you go, make sure that's paramount. And that we will end with when you walk in, if you plug in, you are important. Yeah, your voice is important, your life is important, your gifts are important. Everybody has importance, everybody has value. Yeah, that's how we grow healthy.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah, let's pray. Lord, we love you. We thank you, God, for being perfect, gracious, patient, kind, and loving us so well. Lord, we just ask that you would uh just reach into the heart of every person right now who's been hurt within church or the construct of church or by somebody at church, whether it be a pastor, a leader, a patron, whoever it might be, Lord, and we just pray that you would heal that in them. Heal that, bring reconciliation. But uh ultimately, Lord, just reveal how good you are, even in and through those things, that you are perfect and that you are love. And Lord, I just pray that you would continue to help us to navigate this time, the the the world at this time, and to be able to minister, bring your gospel, your truth, and your love in a way that's healthy, in a way that is um receivable. Um, and I pray that every person would be impacted by your truth and by your power and by your love. Lord, we thank you for um all that you're doing, but also just want to lift up to you anybody who is dealing with uh pain, if they need healing in their body or their mind. We just call on you right now to just rush to them, rush to them. And Lord, let them feel your power and your touch even right now. By your stripes, we're healed, and we declare healing over the body and the mind of those who need it right now. And Lord, we just call on you again for anybody who doesn't know you. Lord, I pray that you would make yourself real to them now, and that they would open their heart to receive you. And Lord, that they would encounter you in your love, and that they would receive you, and that they would live a life that honors you. Thank you, Jesus. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Amen. We want your input, your topics, your questions, everything. I believe we've just shot our 21st episode. Yeah, let's go. Which puts us in about the top five percent of all podcasts. Yeah, most people make it this far. And so we just thank you. We thank the Lord, we thank Tony, who's really the one who's made it happen. Yes. We love you and God bless you. Yeah. Later. Bam.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. It truly means a lot to us. If you'd like to hear more episodes like this, please subscribe to our channel. It's the simplest and most impactful way to show your support. We'll see you on the next one. And as always, God bless.